Ahh, to be unintentionally benefitting from someone’s screw up! I’m watching! I had such a shitty day at work that I’ve been looking foward to this game all day. Stupid incompetent bosses. Ugh.
I know the weather is bad, but my god! That attendence is pathetic! I know I already said it once, but I can’t get over it. If I lived in the area, I’d be going every night!
Judging from GameDay, Harang’s strikes look like they are right over the heart of the plate and his (pitches that are not strikes) are no where close, i.e. would have little chance of fooling anyone. Does television confirm this as well as the score does?
Yes, I know you said this tongue-in-cheek. There are those that believe that statement is true. Do you believe that if Ryan Freel wasn’t in his current slump that Dunn would have a lower avg and fewer homers because he would be batting with runners on base more often?
I think I read that Arroyo is skipping past Ramirez inthe rotation so that he pitches on normal rest (tomorrow vs Washington). So, the piping hot Phillies will get to face Ramirez, Williams, Claussen. Folks, better wear your hard hats to the stadium this weekend!
Harang v. Guillen, hmmmm. That was a pretty good rent-a-free-agent, reclamation project, trade for prospect deal. Anyone remember what came of Juan Encarnacion’s brief stay in Cincinnati?
I mean Bowden brought Encarnacion here. Not that he was involved with getting Harang. That would take a good GM eye, which we all know he doesn’t have.
Thank you Jerry for finally putting Kearns fourth, where he should have been all year, breaking up the lefties (although one leftie contiues to be conspicuous by his absense). Cannot complain about EdE’s results, but moving kid from 8 spot last year to clean up a bit much, despite spring training. Of course, given Kearns’ recent history, this comment could have been a bunch of crap, too.
i think it’s a good thing. he doesn’t have good stuff, could probably use the rest, and the bullpen, oddly, no longer makes me groan at the thought of it. i think it’s awesome that the reds are still winning when harang didn’t really pitch well, yet he is up for the win. that’s how it works for winning teams!
Thanks folks for the commentary, going out to dinner (left coast time). This one has been more interesting than several games of late, wish Kearns or EdE had made leaving easier, but want Harang to get the decision regardless. Java man, that’s encouraging. Later.
Ahh, to be unintentionally benefitting from someone’s screw up! I’m watching! I had such a shitty day at work that I’ve been looking foward to this game all day. Stupid incompetent bosses. Ugh.
Nice to see Freel snapping his looming oh-fer streak. It was a bloop single that fell just out of reach, but that’s the kind of break that they need to get hot again.
Or so they like to say. Just like ‘give 110%’ or ‘taking it one game at a time.’
link for Bowden’s trade record. less than stellar.
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 8:21 pm
That is very interesting and helpful. As I mentioned the other day, I had complied this list on my own along with Bowden’s draft record as a Cincy GM — it was horrible.
Some guy defended Bowden by saying he was a poor judge of pitching talent but implied that he had done a good job otherwise.
A look at all those deals does not reveal any kind of discernable trend that Leatherpanst was any better at judging everyday talent either.
Never saw a barb I didn’t want to toss out there. Plus I just woke up dude — when you get to be my age — you have to take periodic naps — even (or should I say especially) lightly snoozing while watching the Reds on TV.:???::???::???:
Hatteberg is having a great game — that is so cool. People knocked that acquisition as well…but I don’t miss Sean Casey at all…and with Aurilia out, that is huge to see Hatteberg do well.
In what situations may an official scorer freely designate the pitcher that gets the win? It never happens, I know, but Weathers is almost the least-deserving, yet he’s in line for the W.
How many double plays would Casey have killed rallys this year?
Comment by Mike — 5/10/2006 @ 10:11 pm
If he had been playing, while I don’t know the exact number — I do know it would have been among the league leaders.
Casey is a really nice guy, but for the life of me I never understood why management choose him over Konerko and even paid him like he was nearly an elite hitter.
The farther we get from the preevious management — the easier it is to see their “warts” — for sure. The decisions to hand out big contracts to people like Sean Casey and/or Danny Graves; the Larkin decision; even the Griffey acquisition without being assured by ownership that we would be able to surround him with some talented pitching — it all looks very assinine now.
You would never believe the abuse I took in some Reds-related posting areas for pointing those things out so vividly back when they were happening. Some (“prominent”) people around here gave me serious grief back then.
I guess this is as close as I have ever gotten to saying “I told you so”
In what situations may an official scorer freely designate the pitcher that gets the win? It never happens, I know, but Weathers is almost the least-deserving, yet he’s in line for the W.
Comment by DevilsAdvocate — 5/10/2006 @ 10:18 pm
I’m not looking at the official written rule on this — I’m too lazy to look it up.
I think, the scorer has the ability to do that anythime he deems it appropriate — but it is done seldomly — because they are not into setting precedents that may not hold up over time — so it becomes easier to just go with the regular rules of how a winner is determined.
I could be wrong — but that’s what I believe to be true.
I think it would be fair to say that for the last few years it didn’t work for whatever reason. A change of personnel was needed because that players, however good they were not melding as a team and winning.
If he’d take a bag of baseballs as payment, I’d sign Casey. Otherwise no.
The back-fracture injury may be tough to come back from, at least to a point where he’s valuable again as a player. How about signing him as a coach? He could be a fantastic bench coach in a couple years.
Bill, man, where’s your baseball soul? Guys like Casey are worth more than just stats.
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 10:23 pm
My “baseball soul” runs deep. So deep that while Casey was an incredibly nice guy, and a wonderful citizen — the club didn’t go anyway with him playing a prominent role.
I’m 53 years old and in my lifetime, the Reds have never had five straight losing seasons — until the last five. I’d had it with going with the same people and hoping with all hope that the result would somehow be different.
Candidly, I believe that more significant changes are in order if the ownership and new management is to actually accomplish its stated goal. And I am fine with that.
If getting rid of the Casey’s of the world moves the club towards being better, I am behind moving him. Ditto for anyone — emphasis on anyone – else on this roster currently.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — I believe in the new management — and to improve this club dramatically more in the future with the stated goal of becoming a contender — it must improve the pitching and defense.
You can fairly easily figure out what that might mean from here.
The Marlins have rebuild several time to very good results. If you have the right people in place, both office and field, they have proven it can be done.
If you are talking about him playing the role of working in some PR capacity or the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce or speaking on the importance of family or working as a Big Brother (I also am a Big Brother in that program)you have a guy who is as good as you could find in Casey.
Taken as a whole body of work on the baseball field — Casey’s offensive output in good years is still below average (check it out). His defense is very average; his lack of speed is a real liability (too many DPs and a station-to-station runner on the bases).
The Marlins have rebuild several time to very good results. If you have the right people in place, both office and field, they have proven it can be done.
Comment by Mike — 5/10/2006 @ 10:38 pm
I think you guys are aware that I live in Chicago’s far western suburbs. The town I live in has the single A team — the Kane County Cougars — which is formerly the Marlins farm club.
I’ve seen Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis and many many more come through here. They know how to reload for sure.
Some guy defended Bowden by saying he was a poor judge of pitching talent but implied that he had done a good job otherwise.
A look at all those deals does not reveal any kind of discernable trend that Leatherpanst was any better at judging everyday talent either.
You must have selective reading if you are referring to my comments. There is a lot of blame to point in the direction of Jim Bowden, but you also have to give credit where credit is due. Most of the 2005 offense and a good chunk of the 2006 offense is from the production of players that Jim Bowden signed or traded for. That is a fact, even if you want to hate him.
1. Did Denorfia look really fast to anyone else?
2. I knocked the Hatteberg signing, but he’s been great. I think I was mostly chapped because he was about the 47th 36-year-old they signed in two weeks, but whatever I was bitching about, it looks like I might have been wrong.
3. Bill says “I told you so” every 18 minutes or so. I don’t know who he’s arguing with – most people had been bitching about Bowden for 2-3 years before he got the axe.
4. Nice defense there in the 9th. This team has some guys who are capable of making good plays.
Most of the 2005 offense and a good chunk of the 2006 offense is from the production of players that Jim Bowden signed or traded for. That is a fact, even if you want to hate him.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/10/2006 @ 11:20 pm
How hard is that to imagine if the guy was the GM for (what) 12 years prior to that?
I would hope that most of the offense would be from guys he drafted or acquired. I would have hoped that some of his moves at least panned out to the point that the people he put in place would still be in place the next 32 monnths later.
Your comment attempted to qualify that while Bowden was not good at assessing pitching talent, that the Reds offense was largely a work of Bowden’s efforts.
I c an go back and ghet the exact quote — but that is a fair representation of what you said.
My response was not selective at all. It is to illustrate that Bowden was and is still not a very good judge of talent of any kind. There really is no evidence to suggest that he is good at assessing position players and bad at assessing pitching talent. There is far more evidence to support that he is a poor judge of talent period — or considering recent incidents — just a poor judge in any manner of his life.
Sean Casey never turned out to be “Tony Gwynn” — but that’s what Bowden wanted us to believe. Paul Konerko was given 55 plate appearances in Cincy before Bowden chose Casey over Konerko.
Reggie Taylor? Kerry Robinson?
Do you need me to go on?
Rueben Sierra.
Mike Frank didn’t become the CF of the future as Bowden said he would be.
The infatuation and multiple acquisitions of Deion Sanders look as insane today as they did each time.
Trading a first round pick in the amateur draft for Damon Berryhill moves insanity to an even higher level.
Bowden’s first round picks during his entire tenure were graded D or F by analysts at Baseball America and/or Baseball Weekly — pitchers or position players take your pick — all were abysmal — Johnny Ruffin, Chad Mattola,
Curtis Goodwin for David Wells?
I really can go on for a long time with more deals that support my position.
EE, Dunn, Kearns, Lopez, Junior — were all Bowden acquisitions — but seriously the guy was the GM for 12 years right up till the summer of ‘03 — so wouldn’t that seem to be the obvious outcome? It hasn’t been that long since he was here screwing everything up for our storied franchise.
To look at the Reds roster today — depending on how you count it — somewhere between just 5 to 7 of the players on the roster today, were acquired during Bowden’s regime. For a guy around 12 years and who departed less than 3 years ago — by my way of thinking, that dismal of a result does nothing but support what I am saying.
If anything to single out the five to seven guys left as evidence that he did so well with discerning offensive talent is truly “selective” indeed.
1. Did Denorfia look really fast to anyone else?
2. I knocked the Hatteberg signing, but he’s been great. I think I was mostly chapped because he was about the 47th 36-year-old they signed in two weeks, but whatever I was bitching about, it looks like I might have been wrong.
3. Bill says “I told you so” every 18 minutes or so. I don’t know who he’s arguing with – most people had been bitching about Bowden for 2-3 years before he got the axe.
4. Nice defense there in the 9th. This team has some guys who are capable of making good plays.
Comment by Chris — 5/10/2006 @ 11:42 pm
(1) Denorfia is fast and is the favorite among Reds top management to be manning CF sooner than anyone is letting on.
(2) You were wrong about Hatteberg — that was a good pick-up and we haven’t lost a step (pardon the pun) from when Casey was lumbering around 1B for this club.
(3) Like you were wrong about Hatteberg — you are wrong here as well. I’m not arguing, you don’t know the background of which I was referring to so you really are in no position to pass judgement on me or any postion I have taken.
(4) But the defense is one area that must be fixed if this club is going to ultimately contend year in and year out. The decision to bring in Hatteberg and acquire and start Phillips are both moves by Krivsky with an eye towards improving the defense.
Your comment attempted to qualify that while Bowden was not good at assessing pitching talent, that the Reds offense was largely a work of Bowden’s efforts.
That is a fairer representation of what I said. That is not the same as saying that I implied that he had done a good job otherwise.
I said he wasn’t a good evaluator of pitching talent (though I should qualify that to starters. The Reds had some pretty good bullpen’s under his watch.)
I said that he preferred fast hitters to good hitters.
And I said it’s a fact that the 2005 offense is largely to Jim Bowden’s credit. It’s not that Bowden’s players just provided the majority of the offenense for a season and a month. You’re right, you would expect the stain of an old regime in any organization to continue on for a couple of years into a new regime. However, it’s that they have been the BEST offensive unit in the league during this timeframe. How many GM’s get thrown out on their bum and leave behind a legacy of the best offense in the league? Do you get the point? It’s not that Bowden’s players contributed most of the Reds offense it’s that they were BEST in the league.
I wanted to see him gone just like everybody else and his firing came too late. But you want to give him credit for absolutely nothing and then make personal attacks related to his off-the-field issues.
You should update your “I hate Jim Bowden” list to correct that Mottola wasn’t a Bowden draftee and that draft picks aren’t tradeable commodities in baseball. There are plenty of reasons to hate Bowden without making stuff up.
Berryhill was signed as a free agent by Bowden. The result of that the Reds forfeited their first round pick — November 4, 1994: Signed as a Free Agent with the Cincinnati Reds.
February 26, 1996: Released by the Cincinnati Reds.
Compensatory draft picks are not the same thing as trading a draft pick.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/11/2006 @ 1:54 pm
But — knowing that to acquire a free agent will cost you the same thing as if you traded them — why would Bowden or you feel that it was a good idea to relinquish a first round pick for Damon Berryhill?
And why would you want to try to argue/spin over whether I used the word trade or compensatory pick, when it has the same end result?
My point — which anyone could understand — is that it was assinine for Bowden to acquire Damon Berryhill when it meant having to surrender/relinquish/give up/not trade but the same ened result your first round pick in an amatuer draft???
Where did I say signing Berryhill was a good idea? I’m pointing out that your hate list might have a little more credence if it were accurate.
I could drive to Chicago or I could fly to Chicago. Why doesn’t it matter what I call the mode of transportation as long as the end result (getting to Chicago) is the same?
I could drive to Chicago or I could fly to Chicago. Why doesn’t it matter what I call the mode of transportation as long as the end result (getting to Chicago) is the same?
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/11/2006 @ 5:34 pm
It doesn’t matter if the main point is that you travelled from Indianapolis to Chicago.
Just as it doesn’t matter whether Bowden reliquished, had to give up in compensation or traded a first round pick for Damon Berryhill. The end result is the same.
The only thing worse than a poster who wants to argue about whether one word or another should be used to describe the same thing is a poster who wants to argue over one word or another and won’t let the argument go when he is proven wrong.
Somehow, my correct observations about Jim Bowden have been met with — not explanations about his sickly performance as GM — but with sickly ruminations over whether Bowden traded Damon Berryhill for a first round pick or had to relinquish a first round pick as compensation for signing him as a free agent.
Lost in all that is the point — Bowden was a horrible GM who’s maddening lapses in judgement set this franchise back a decade. The Berryhill “transaction” was just one of dozens that could be used as examples of Bowden’s boneheadedness.
I’ll say it again — the main point was that it was a stupid “deal” — which you have said you agree with as well.
The main point is not about Damon Berryhill. The main point is that Jim Bowden is not completely, singlehandedly responsible for the “demise of this franchise” and your exaggeration that his influence set this franchise back ten years is laughable at best. Here it is less than 3 years later and the Reds are in first place in the Central, recently holding the honor of best record in baseball. There it was just 2 years later that the Reds had the best offense in the league. Oh what that team could have done in 2005 if OBrien would have acquired real starters instead of signing Eric Milton, Paul Wilson, and Ramon Ortiz to be the team’s #1-#2-#3 starters.
The main point is that Jim Bowden is not completely, singlehandedly responsible for the “demise of this franchise” and your exaggeration that his influence set this franchise back ten years is laughable at best. Here it is less than 3 years later and the Reds are in first place in the Central, recently holding the honor of best record in baseball. There it was just 2 years later that the Reds had the best offense in the league
Allow me to remind you Greg, that you are either riddled with amnesia or you suffer from an incurable persecution complex. Maybe its the Indianapolis thing — which is as plausible of an explanation as anything you are offering.
Reds fans — like myself — gave Jim Bowden the benefit of the doubt at nearly every turn during Marge’s time as owner. Then it was Lindner being too cheap. He got the benefit of the doubt for every pratfall until around 2002, when he inexplicably showed up in spring training with a hairdresser on his arm at spring training. He drank heavily and left ST games early with her. He commited administrative errors that a student intern would notice and the club suffered for it. As our nation mourns its greatest attack on our land in hsitory, he makes stupid comparisons to a potential strike and 9-11.
This storied franchise has been plunging toward all-time lows for years before Bowden was fired. Let me also remind you that Bowden stated back when he was GM long ago, that he was pointing his rebuilding plan to coincide with the opening of the GABP. The purging and blood-letting towards that plan began in the summer of 1997. Now we are going on nine years from that point. Nine years — nearly a decade.
The club has suffered five consecutive losing seasons — something that has not happened in most everyone’s lifetime (among hose who post here).
Jim Bowden as GM was/is very much a part of that fall, given the alarming lack of life that characterized the last few years of his tenure. There are so many underachieving issues one can place at Bowden’s feet that it isn’t even disputable.
As for dwelling on his personal issues — they have become a part of how he is defined as a GM. It continues for him as all “Miami Beach” broke loose on him and his new floozy last week. Thankfully, he is no longer our problem.
I’ve written here and in REDSZONE and on the RedsListServ that Bowden was strapped for money by ownership. But that sitaution was where he was supposed to be at his best — overachieving and scrapping as a true “Boy Wonder” — and he did none of the such. He leaked rumors and innuendo to the media about Marge Schott and Carl Linder. He did all the back-biting and political infighting that you might expect to go on at a elementary school playground in Broad Ripple.
I don’t hate Jim Bowden. And I am not picking on him unfairly. I am — as a Reds fan — incredibly disappointed at the job he failed to do in a leadership position with our franchise for 12 years.
Bill, you have no idea what you are talking about, and I can’t stand reading everyone argue with you. Aurilia has sucked for years, and he’s no better than a backup……
Nice Brandon Phillips red herring. There is a better option than Phillips right now: Ryan Freel.
You don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
Comment Posted By Randy On 8.04.2006 @ 16:41
Eat a peach, Randy — then build a bridge and get over it.
1 – No where in my comments have I made a personal attack on you, BillH. I would appreciate a little reciprical respect, especially since repeatedly tell us all to stick to the topic of Reds baseball.
2 – You were a Bowden supporter for 10 years? Wow! No wonder you’re so upset. I thought most people had given up on him LOOONNNNGGGG before that.
1 – No where in my comments have I made a personal attack on you, BillH. I would appreciate a little reciprical respect, especially since repeatedly tell us all to stick to the topic of Reds baseball.
2 – You were a Bowden supporter for 10 years? Wow! No wonder you’re so upset. I thought most people had given up on him LOOONNNNGGGG before that.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/12/2006 @ 6:43 am
No one wrote anywhere any of what you are conjurring up. My folks lived in Indianapolis; I always liked the city — don’t keep your nonsense up so I end up changing my mind because of you.
2009 stats: Sarasota 2-1 8 Games 8 Games Started 42.1 IP 4.89 ERA 1.44 WHIP
Carolina 3-2 6 Game 6 Game Started 36 2/3 IP 2.95 ERA 1.09 WHIP
Louisville 2-2 5 Game 5 Game Started 29 IP 2.48 ERA 1.21 WHIP
RN Exclusives!
The Big Board -- In-Depth Reds Organizational Depth Chart (updated 2/23/10)
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By the way, no Junior again tonight.
…and no television for me tonight, either. Blacked out again.
Ahh, to be unintentionally benefitting from someone’s screw up! I’m watching! I had such a shitty day at work that I’ve been looking foward to this game all day. Stupid incompetent bosses. Ugh.
Got to win tonight to stay in first place since the Cards won earlier today.
That’s one of the great joys of baseball, D. Helps you relax and forget all the nonsense we have to endure during the day.
You know the music teacher on the Simpsons? (the one who kicks Lisa out of class?) That’s what my boss looks like. Seriously.
Where are the Cincinnati fans in the stands? The place is like Montreal!
Why the heck won’t Narron start Denorfia, just once? Freel is in an absolute gulag of a slump.
Anyone care to venture a guess as to why no Chris D?
BOO YA! Number 13 from Dunn!
That one was what, 15 feet from leaving the park entirely?
Not a clue. Can’t even offer some wild guess.
Dunn rocks!
I can’t believe he hit a hr with someone on base.
Kearns is on some kind of roll lately.
And it doesn’t look like Livan Hernandez has solved his 2006 problems.
I know the weather is bad, but my god! That attendence is pathetic! I know I already said it once, but I can’t get over it. If I lived in the area, I’d be going every night!
“Where are the Cincinnati fans in the stands? The place is like Montreal!”
I’m guessing everyone figured the rain would cancel the game . . . that’s what I’m hoping at least.
Great hustle from Kearns on that play!
Well on his way to Red of the Month honors.
Might be a while before Harang rings up his first major league grand slam
Harang doesn’t have his best stuff tonight.
Judging from GameDay, Harang’s strikes look like they are right over the heart of the plate and his (pitches that are not strikes) are no where close, i.e. would have little chance of fooling anyone. Does television confirm this as well as the score does?
Jeff-
Doesn’t look like his cut fastball has any movement today — almost flat. That, plus the fact that this lineup has seen his stuff a couple weeks ago.
I second Dave’s comments about the pitches being flat.
I’m nervous about this game.
I can’t believe he hit a hr with someone on base.
Yes, I know you said this tongue-in-cheek. There are those that believe that statement is true. Do you believe that if Ryan Freel wasn’t in his current slump that Dunn would have a lower avg and fewer homers because he would be batting with runners on base more often?
I think I read that Arroyo is skipping past Ramirez inthe rotation so that he pitches on normal rest (tomorrow vs Washington). So, the piping hot Phillies will get to face Ramirez, Williams, Claussen. Folks, better wear your hard hats to the stadium this weekend!
How bout Hatteberg legging that one out! Never in seven million years would Casey have been safe on that play.
Harang v. Guillen, hmmmm. That was a pretty good rent-a-free-agent, reclamation project, trade for prospect deal. Anyone remember what came of Juan Encarnacion’s brief stay in Cincinnati?
Ryan Dempster
Link
now THAT was a double play
Had high hopes for that trade at the time, guess it didn’t work out too well. Thanks for the link.
link for Bowden’s trade record. less than stellar.
I mean Bowden brought Encarnacion here. Not that he was involved with getting Harang. That would take a good GM eye, which we all know he doesn’t have.
nice link daedalus
Got to say, I’m loving having Dunn and Kearns back-to-back in the lineup.
Yeah, it’s about time we saw this lineup, isn’t it?
Crap. Harang really doesn’t have it tonight, does he?
Thank you Jerry for finally putting Kearns fourth, where he should have been all year, breaking up the lefties (although one leftie contiues to be conspicuous by his absense). Cannot complain about EdE’s results, but moving kid from 8 spot last year to clean up a bit much, despite spring training. Of course, given Kearns’ recent history, this comment could have been a bunch of crap, too.
Anyone have any thoughts on yanking Harang after six?
i think it’s a good thing. he doesn’t have good stuff, could probably use the rest, and the bullpen, oddly, no longer makes me groan at the thought of it. i think it’s awesome that the reds are still winning when harang didn’t really pitch well, yet he is up for the win. that’s how it works for winning teams!
One gets the impression this battery is not one of the better ones at preventing stolen bases.
wrongo. Schneider lead the league in throwing out baserunners in the past three years.
that’s “led”
A one run lead handed to the bullpen? I remain nervous.
Wow, good stat. Does the blame fall to Hernandez then, or is Billy Hatcher just an awesome first base coach?
Double steal – these Reds are speed demons.
Hernandez’s fastest pitch all night has been 86. He throws a Bugs Bunny curve that comes in at 65 mph, so it’s easy to steal on him.
Thanks folks for the commentary, going out to dinner (left coast time). This one has been more interesting than several games of late, wish Kearns or EdE had made leaving easier, but want Harang to get the decision regardless. Java man, that’s encouraging. Later.
Hatteberg is now officially on my Christmas card list.
Is anyone else as impressed by Todd Coffey as I am?
Hey guys — how’s everyone doin?
Rey!!!
By the way, no Junior again tonight.
Comment by Chad — 5/10/2006 @ 6:56 pm
Yyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn.
Ahh, to be unintentionally benefitting from someone’s screw up! I’m watching! I had such a shitty day at work that I’ve been looking foward to this game all day. Stupid incompetent bosses. Ugh.
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 7:11 pm
Do you work for the Federal Government?
I love how Bill comes in swinging.
Where are the Cincinnati fans in the stands? The place is like Montreal!
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 7:18 pm
I think it is cold and wet with a really good chance of more rain in the forecast — that probably kept folks away.
Some kind of non-profit group for daedalus by day, isn’t it? I may have only gotten that impression from your blog somehow.
Nice to see Freel snapping his looming oh-fer streak. It was a bloop single that fell just out of reach, but that’s the kind of break that they need to get hot again.
Or so they like to say. Just like ‘give 110%’ or ‘taking it one game at a time.’
link for Bowden’s trade record. less than stellar.
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 8:21 pm
That is very interesting and helpful. As I mentioned the other day, I had complied this list on my own along with Bowden’s draft record as a Cincy GM — it was horrible.
Some guy defended Bowden by saying he was a poor judge of pitching talent but implied that he had done a good job otherwise.
A look at all those deals does not reveal any kind of discernable trend that Leatherpanst was any better at judging everyday talent either.
Yep, a non-profit gal. Wouldn’t delve into the realm of corporate hell. Don’t like the feeling of slavery.
I love how Bill comes in swinging.
Comment by Dave Massey — 5/10/2006 @ 9:38 pm
Never saw a barb I didn’t want to toss out there. Plus I just woke up dude — when you get to be my age — you have to take periodic naps — even (or should I say especially) lightly snoozing while watching the Reds on TV.:???::???::???:
I don’t know what to think when Mercker comes in — just when I think he’s going good, he has a God-awful game. I hope that doesn’t happen tonight.
Like I said, I hate when that happens.:evil::evil::evil:
Thank goodness for that insurance run. And here comes Denorfia in a doubleswitch!
Coffey’s ERA just doubled with that inherited runner that Mercker allowed to score.
Ouch. And we start from scratch here in the eighth, 6-all.
Marty is going to just be a joy to listen to the rest of the game
I still hate this bullpen.
Too bad they couldn’t preserve the win for Harang. Now Weathers is primed for the vulture win, though, after the blown save.
“I still hate this bullpen”
x2
OK, Adam Dunn, let’s make up for the defensive bobble last inning.
I just had a premonition.
Dunn will go yard at this AB.
and by “go yard” I mean he will walk.
perhaps you shouldn’t rely on your “special gift”
I just had a postmonition – Dunn went yard in his first at-bat today.
My gift is not-so-special.
Kearns = RED-HOT.
It is so good to see Ears swinging the bat like this.
The Nats don’t want any part of Denorfia either.
Aw, Denorfia finally gets into a game and he has to stand there and get intentionally walked.
things are looking good. again.
beam us up, scotty!
what’s dunn so mad about?
dunner just dropped an f bomb on camera for some reason.
vulture win. Nice term..how true
i just thought- maybe he was told to run on kearns’ hit
Big-time hit for Hatteberg.
What about that Hat Dude?
and by “go yard” I mean he will walk.
Comment by Dave Massey — 5/10/2006 @ 10:02 pm
With your ability to interpret dreams, does that make you Joseph? Does that
make Castellini Pharoah?
Methinks Hatteberg just earned himself a nickname.
Any suggestions? “Hatty” just seems lame.
Hatteberg is having a great game — that is so cool. People knocked that acquisition as well…but I don’t miss Sean Casey at all…and with Aurilia out, that is huge to see Hatteberg do well.
But the win is important..Big hit
I would like to see Phillips get three hits tonight — that would help him a bunch.
How many double plays would Casey have killed rallys this year?
Phillips seems to have come back a bit. Nice game for him. 2-3 with 2 RBI’s and a Run
Woooo! 9-6 on the sac. fly by Phillips. First out of the inning, too.
Almost as good as a hit.
Let us not denounce the dearly departed (Casey).
I can’t believe they’re keeping Weathers in. Are we out of pinch hitters?
Just curious, how many double plays this year vs last year
how many ABs will weathers get this year? three?
so help me god, if weathers screws this up . . .
post #100!
I wish I had a joke or something . . .
In what situations may an official scorer freely designate the pitcher that gets the win? It never happens, I know, but Weathers is almost the least-deserving, yet he’s in line for the W.
How many double plays would Casey have killed rallys this year?
Comment by Mike — 5/10/2006 @ 10:11 pm
If he had been playing, while I don’t know the exact number — I do know it would have been among the league leaders.
Casey is a really nice guy, but for the life of me I never understood why management choose him over Konerko and even paid him like he was nearly an elite hitter.
The farther we get from the preevious management — the easier it is to see their “warts” — for sure. The decisions to hand out big contracts to people like Sean Casey and/or Danny Graves; the Larkin decision; even the Griffey acquisition without being assured by ownership that we would be able to surround him with some talented pitching — it all looks very assinine now.
You would never believe the abuse I took in some Reds-related posting areas for pointing those things out so vividly back when they were happening. Some (“prominent”) people around here gave me serious grief back then.
I guess this is as close as I have ever gotten to saying “I told you so”
MLB.com has zero AB for Weathers
In what situations may an official scorer freely designate the pitcher that gets the win? It never happens, I know, but Weathers is almost the least-deserving, yet he’s in line for the W.
Comment by DevilsAdvocate — 5/10/2006 @ 10:18 pm
I’m not looking at the official written rule on this — I’m too lazy to look it up.
I think, the scorer has the ability to do that anythime he deems it appropriate — but it is done seldomly — because they are not into setting precedents that may not hold up over time — so it becomes easier to just go with the regular rules of how a winner is determined.
I could be wrong — but that’s what I believe to be true.
I think it would be fair to say that for the last few years it didn’t work for whatever reason. A change of personnel was needed because that players, however good they were not melding as a team and winning.
Bill, man, where’s your baseball soul? Guys like Casey are worth more than just stats.
There was supposed to be a
there.
Big K
Soriano has amazing talents but I love it when he strikes out. Guys like him and Jose Guillen deserve to be with someone like Jim Bowden.
I’m ready for this game to be over. Weathers doesn’t seem to be, however.
So daedalus, are you saying sign Casey for next year?
This one belongs to the Reds !!!
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRANDON PHILLIPS!!!!!
Can Phillips get the W instead of Weathers? or anyone else?
I hope that pisses Guillen off so bad that he quits.
Good game everyone.
And thanks for making these last few hours of work more tolerable — catch y’all tomorrow.
I’m saying sign Casey for eternity. :razz::razz:
Nice win.
woohoo! (i think my computer is sloooow today.) :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
What is Casey worth a year?
If he’d take a bag of baseballs as payment, I’d sign Casey. Otherwise no.
The back-fracture injury may be tough to come back from, at least to a point where he’s valuable again as a player. How about signing him as a coach? He could be a fantastic bench coach in a couple years.
He would be a great bench coach
Bill, man, where’s your baseball soul? Guys like Casey are worth more than just stats.
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 10:23 pm
My “baseball soul” runs deep. So deep that while Casey was an incredibly nice guy, and a wonderful citizen — the club didn’t go anyway with him playing a prominent role.
I’m 53 years old and in my lifetime, the Reds have never had five straight losing seasons — until the last five. I’d had it with going with the same people and hoping with all hope that the result would somehow be different.
Candidly, I believe that more significant changes are in order if the ownership and new management is to actually accomplish its stated goal. And I am fine with that.
If getting rid of the Casey’s of the world moves the club towards being better, I am behind moving him. Ditto for anyone — emphasis on anyone – else on this roster currently.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — I believe in the new management — and to improve this club dramatically more in the future with the stated goal of becoming a contender — it must improve the pitching and defense.
You can fairly easily figure out what that might mean from here.
The Marlins have rebuild several time to very good results. If you have the right people in place, both office and field, they have proven it can be done.
I’m saying sign Casey for eternity.
Comment by daedalus — 5/10/2006 @ 10:29 pm
If you are talking about him playing the role of working in some PR capacity or the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce or speaking on the importance of family or working as a Big Brother (I also am a Big Brother in that program)you have a guy who is as good as you could find in Casey.
Taken as a whole body of work on the baseball field — Casey’s offensive output in good years is still below average (check it out). His defense is very average; his lack of speed is a real liability (too many DPs and a station-to-station runner on the bases).
The Marlins have rebuild several time to very good results. If you have the right people in place, both office and field, they have proven it can be done.
Comment by Mike — 5/10/2006 @ 10:38 pm
I think you guys are aware that I live in Chicago’s far western suburbs. The town I live in has the single A team — the Kane County Cougars — which is formerly the Marlins farm club.
I’ve seen Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis and many many more come through here. They know how to reload for sure.
Some guy defended Bowden by saying he was a poor judge of pitching talent but implied that he had done a good job otherwise.
A look at all those deals does not reveal any kind of discernable trend that Leatherpanst was any better at judging everyday talent either.
You must have selective reading if you are referring to my comments. There is a lot of blame to point in the direction of Jim Bowden, but you also have to give credit where credit is due. Most of the 2005 offense and a good chunk of the 2006 offense is from the production of players that Jim Bowden signed or traded for. That is a fact, even if you want to hate him.
1. Did Denorfia look really fast to anyone else?
I don’t know who he’s arguing with – most people had been bitching about Bowden for 2-3 years before he got the axe.
2. I knocked the Hatteberg signing, but he’s been great. I think I was mostly chapped because he was about the 47th 36-year-old they signed in two weeks, but whatever I was bitching about, it looks like I might have been wrong.
3. Bill says “I told you so” every 18 minutes or so.
4. Nice defense there in the 9th. This team has some guys who are capable of making good plays.
what is up with the lack of people interested in a first place squad?
Most of the 2005 offense and a good chunk of the 2006 offense is from the production of players that Jim Bowden signed or traded for. That is a fact, even if you want to hate him.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/10/2006 @ 11:20 pm
How hard is that to imagine if the guy was the GM for (what) 12 years prior to that?
I would hope that most of the offense would be from guys he drafted or acquired. I would have hoped that some of his moves at least panned out to the point that the people he put in place would still be in place the next 32 monnths later.
Your comment attempted to qualify that while Bowden was not good at assessing pitching talent, that the Reds offense was largely a work of Bowden’s efforts.
I c an go back and ghet the exact quote — but that is a fair representation of what you said.
My response was not selective at all. It is to illustrate that Bowden was and is still not a very good judge of talent of any kind. There really is no evidence to suggest that he is good at assessing position players and bad at assessing pitching talent. There is far more evidence to support that he is a poor judge of talent period — or considering recent incidents — just a poor judge in any manner of his life.
Sean Casey never turned out to be “Tony Gwynn” — but that’s what Bowden wanted us to believe. Paul Konerko was given 55 plate appearances in Cincy before Bowden chose Casey over Konerko.
Reggie Taylor? Kerry Robinson?
Do you need me to go on?
Rueben Sierra.
Mike Frank didn’t become the CF of the future as Bowden said he would be.
The infatuation and multiple acquisitions of Deion Sanders look as insane today as they did each time.
Trading a first round pick in the amateur draft for Damon Berryhill moves insanity to an even higher level.
Bowden’s first round picks during his entire tenure were graded D or F by analysts at Baseball America and/or Baseball Weekly — pitchers or position players take your pick — all were abysmal — Johnny Ruffin, Chad Mattola,
Curtis Goodwin for David Wells?
I really can go on for a long time with more deals that support my position.
EE, Dunn, Kearns, Lopez, Junior — were all Bowden acquisitions — but seriously the guy was the GM for 12 years right up till the summer of ‘03 — so wouldn’t that seem to be the obvious outcome? It hasn’t been that long since he was here screwing everything up for our storied franchise.
To look at the Reds roster today — depending on how you count it — somewhere between just 5 to 7 of the players on the roster today, were acquired during Bowden’s regime. For a guy around 12 years and who departed less than 3 years ago — by my way of thinking, that dismal of a result does nothing but support what I am saying.
If anything to single out the five to seven guys left as evidence that he did so well with discerning offensive talent is truly “selective” indeed.
1. Did Denorfia look really fast to anyone else?
2. I knocked the Hatteberg signing, but he’s been great. I think I was mostly chapped because he was about the 47th 36-year-old they signed in two weeks, but whatever I was bitching about, it looks like I might have been wrong.
3. Bill says “I told you so” every 18 minutes or so. I don’t know who he’s arguing with – most people had been bitching about Bowden for 2-3 years before he got the axe.
4. Nice defense there in the 9th. This team has some guys who are capable of making good plays.
Comment by Chris — 5/10/2006 @ 11:42 pm
(1) Denorfia is fast and is the favorite among Reds top management to be manning CF sooner than anyone is letting on.
(2) You were wrong about Hatteberg — that was a good pick-up and we haven’t lost a step (pardon the pun) from when Casey was lumbering around 1B for this club.
(3) Like you were wrong about Hatteberg — you are wrong here as well. I’m not arguing, you don’t know the background of which I was referring to so you really are in no position to pass judgement on me or any postion I have taken.
(4) But the defense is one area that must be fixed if this club is going to ultimately contend year in and year out. The decision to bring in Hatteberg and acquire and start Phillips are both moves by Krivsky with an eye towards improving the defense.
Apparently only you are allowed to pass judgment around here.
Your comment attempted to qualify that while Bowden was not good at assessing pitching talent, that the Reds offense was largely a work of Bowden’s efforts.
That is a fairer representation of what I said. That is not the same as saying that I implied that he had done a good job otherwise.
I said he wasn’t a good evaluator of pitching talent (though I should qualify that to starters. The Reds had some pretty good bullpen’s under his watch.)
I said that he preferred fast hitters to good hitters.
And I said it’s a fact that the 2005 offense is largely to Jim Bowden’s credit. It’s not that Bowden’s players just provided the majority of the offenense for a season and a month. You’re right, you would expect the stain of an old regime in any organization to continue on for a couple of years into a new regime. However, it’s that they have been the BEST offensive unit in the league during this timeframe. How many GM’s get thrown out on their bum and leave behind a legacy of the best offense in the league? Do you get the point? It’s not that Bowden’s players contributed most of the Reds offense it’s that they were BEST in the league.
I wanted to see him gone just like everybody else and his firing came too late. But you want to give him credit for absolutely nothing and then make personal attacks related to his off-the-field issues.
You should update your “I hate Jim Bowden” list to correct that Mottola wasn’t a Bowden draftee and that draft picks aren’t tradeable commodities in baseball. There are plenty of reasons to hate Bowden without making stuff up.
You’re right, you would expect the stain of an old regime in any organization to continue on for a couple of years into a new regime.
Thank you
How many GM’s get thrown out on their bum and leave behind a legacy of the best offense in the league?
Really, really bad ones
Berryhill was signed as a free agent by Bowden. The result of that the Reds forfeited their first round pick — November 4, 1994: Signed as a Free Agent with the Cincinnati Reds.
February 26, 1996: Released by the Cincinnati Reds.
Apparently only you are allowed to pass judgment around here.
Comment by Chris — 5/11/2006 @ 9:08 am
Chris, I have no interest in your personal barbs — let’s keep it to the Reds and baseball.
Compensatory draft picks are not the same thing as trading a draft pick.
Chris is just trying to understand…
Compensatory draft picks are not the same thing as trading a draft pick.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/11/2006 @ 1:54 pm
But — knowing that to acquire a free agent will cost you the same thing as if you traded them — why would Bowden or you feel that it was a good idea to relinquish a first round pick for Damon Berryhill?
And why would you want to try to argue/spin over whether I used the word trade or compensatory pick, when it has the same end result?
My point — which anyone could understand — is that it was assinine for Bowden to acquire Damon Berryhill when it meant having to surrender/relinquish/give up/not trade but the same ened result your first round pick in an amatuer draft???
Chris is just trying to understand…
Comment by Pinski — 5/11/2006 @ 4:27 pm
Understand what?
I’m trying to understand why people want to make things personal when we are supposed to talk Reds baseball here.
Where did I say signing Berryhill was a good idea? I’m pointing out that your hate list might have a little more credence if it were accurate.
I could drive to Chicago or I could fly to Chicago. Why doesn’t it matter what I call the mode of transportation as long as the end result (getting to Chicago) is the same?
I could drive to Chicago or I could fly to Chicago. Why doesn’t it matter what I call the mode of transportation as long as the end result (getting to Chicago) is the same?
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/11/2006 @ 5:34 pm
It doesn’t matter if the main point is that you travelled from Indianapolis to Chicago.
Just as it doesn’t matter whether Bowden reliquished, had to give up in compensation or traded a first round pick for Damon Berryhill. The end result is the same.
The only thing worse than a poster who wants to argue about whether one word or another should be used to describe the same thing is a poster who wants to argue over one word or another and won’t let the argument go when he is proven wrong.
Somehow, my correct observations about Jim Bowden have been met with — not explanations about his sickly performance as GM — but with sickly ruminations over whether Bowden traded Damon Berryhill for a first round pick or had to relinquish a first round pick as compensation for signing him as a free agent.
Lost in all that is the point — Bowden was a horrible GM who’s maddening lapses in judgement set this franchise back a decade. The Berryhill “transaction” was just one of dozens that could be used as examples of Bowden’s boneheadedness.
I’ll say it again — the main point was that it was a stupid “deal” — which you have said you agree with as well.
Hooray !!!!
I’m trying to understand why people want to make things personal when we are supposed to talk Reds baseball here.
The main point is not about Damon Berryhill. The main point is that Jim Bowden is not completely, singlehandedly responsible for the “demise of this franchise” and your exaggeration that his influence set this franchise back ten years is laughable at best. Here it is less than 3 years later and the Reds are in first place in the Central, recently holding the honor of best record in baseball. There it was just 2 years later that the Reds had the best offense in the league. Oh what that team could have done in 2005 if OBrien would have acquired real starters instead of signing Eric Milton, Paul Wilson, and Ramon Ortiz to be the team’s #1-#2-#3 starters.
I’m trying to understand why people want to make things personal when we are supposed to talk Reds baseball here.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/11/2006 @ 6:20 pm
Precisely.
The main point is that Jim Bowden is not completely, singlehandedly responsible for the “demise of this franchise” and your exaggeration that his influence set this franchise back ten years is laughable at best. Here it is less than 3 years later and the Reds are in first place in the Central, recently holding the honor of best record in baseball. There it was just 2 years later that the Reds had the best offense in the league
Allow me to remind you Greg, that you are either riddled with amnesia or you suffer from an incurable persecution complex. Maybe its the Indianapolis thing — which is as plausible of an explanation as anything you are offering.
Reds fans — like myself — gave Jim Bowden the benefit of the doubt at nearly every turn during Marge’s time as owner. Then it was Lindner being too cheap. He got the benefit of the doubt for every pratfall until around 2002, when he inexplicably showed up in spring training with a hairdresser on his arm at spring training. He drank heavily and left ST games early with her. He commited administrative errors that a student intern would notice and the club suffered for it. As our nation mourns its greatest attack on our land in hsitory, he makes stupid comparisons to a potential strike and 9-11.
This storied franchise has been plunging toward all-time lows for years before Bowden was fired. Let me also remind you that Bowden stated back when he was GM long ago, that he was pointing his rebuilding plan to coincide with the opening of the GABP. The purging and blood-letting towards that plan began in the summer of 1997. Now we are going on nine years from that point. Nine years — nearly a decade.
The club has suffered five consecutive losing seasons — something that has not happened in most everyone’s lifetime (among hose who post here).
Jim Bowden as GM was/is very much a part of that fall, given the alarming lack of life that characterized the last few years of his tenure. There are so many underachieving issues one can place at Bowden’s feet that it isn’t even disputable.
As for dwelling on his personal issues — they have become a part of how he is defined as a GM. It continues for him as all “Miami Beach” broke loose on him and his new floozy last week. Thankfully, he is no longer our problem.
I’ve written here and in REDSZONE and on the RedsListServ that Bowden was strapped for money by ownership. But that sitaution was where he was supposed to be at his best — overachieving and scrapping as a true “Boy Wonder” — and he did none of the such. He leaked rumors and innuendo to the media about Marge Schott and Carl Linder. He did all the back-biting and political infighting that you might expect to go on at a elementary school playground in Broad Ripple.
I don’t hate Jim Bowden. And I am not picking on him unfairly. I am — as a Reds fan — incredibly disappointed at the job he failed to do in a leadership position with our franchise for 12 years.
Allow me to remind you Greg, that you are either riddled with amnesia or you suffer from an incurable persecution complex.
Comment by Bill Hansing
I’m trying to understand why people want to make things personal when we are supposed to talk Reds baseball here.
Bill, you have no idea what you are talking about, and I can’t stand reading everyone argue with you. Aurilia has sucked for years, and he’s no better than a backup……
Nice Brandon Phillips red herring. There is a better option than Phillips right now: Ryan Freel.
You don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
Comment Posted By Randy On 8.04.2006 @ 16:41
Eat a peach, Randy — then build a bridge and get over it.
1 – No where in my comments have I made a personal attack on you, BillH. I would appreciate a little reciprical respect, especially since repeatedly tell us all to stick to the topic of Reds baseball.
2 – You were a Bowden supporter for 10 years? Wow! No wonder you’re so upset. I thought most people had given up on him LOOONNNNGGGG before that.
1 – No where in my comments have I made a personal attack on you, BillH. I would appreciate a little reciprical respect, especially since repeatedly tell us all to stick to the topic of Reds baseball.
2 – You were a Bowden supporter for 10 years? Wow! No wonder you’re so upset. I thought most people had given up on him LOOONNNNGGGG before that.
Comment by GregD of Indy — 5/12/2006 @ 6:43 am
No one wrote anywhere any of what you are conjurring up. My folks lived in Indianapolis; I always liked the city — don’t keep your nonsense up so I end up changing my mind because of you.